African Cichlids....I'm having problems

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[faithwalker]

They are still small, about 2" - 2.5" in my 56 gallon column tank.

I started out with 3 Yellow Labs, 1 Lelupi, and 1 Calvus.

The male Lab was pestering the other 2 Labs terribly to the point that one was hanging out up top behind the filter tube. She has a lump under her chin and I think she may be holding as I seen them both digging a hole in one corner. Never seen eggs, but could have moved to a cave ? No idea.

I read that more stocking is better to lessen aggression so I went yesterday and picked up 2 more Labs, a Peacock, and a Brichardi. I now have 9 fish in there. The Labs are all chasing and it appears 2 in particular are being bullied. Now the Lelupi has joined in chasing the Peacock and Labs. Calvus and Brichardi keep to themselves. Is this normal ? Will they calm down ? 

[Alex]

I don't think that they will calm down Faith. Had those cichlids and know the way they behave in aquarium. From my own experience only adding caves and rocks will reduce their aggression.

They could have eggs, got short video?  Even if they wouldn't have eggs, a pair would still dig all over the place.

[faithwalker]

I will get a video. They have calmed a bit since yesterday. I have many caves in there but they aren't using them except for the Calvus. It's as if they are all staying in the open challenging each other. Lelupi seems to think it has a chance now too !  I realize the set up isn't quite right and will be adding some rocks this weekend. Maybe I have a bunch of males. I did try before adding the others to either catch the one hiding behind the filter or the super aggressive male Lab but I can't catch the little "insert curse words". The tank is tall with a stress bar in the middle. Ugghhhh !

[susankat]

Yellow labs are mouth brooders so I imagine she is holding. If you can put her into a hospital tank for about 3 weeks and she can release them there and give her a little rest. She won't eat during the time of holding. Also make sure you have plenty of rockwork and caves in the tank it will give them plenty of room to hide.

[faithwalker]

Thank you.

How long does it take for the eggs to hatch ? This all seemed to happen kinda quick. No, she is not eating either. She comes out and swims around looking at the food but does not eat. They do not eat 3 weeks ? Wow.

I can't catch her like I said. I suppose I can remove the decor and then lower the water. Hopefully at that point I would catch the right one, they all look kinda the same....lol ! I do have a 29 gal with a few Rainbows in it I could move her to.

[susankat]

She will usually release in 10 to 14 days. She should start eating then. Reason why I suggest 3 weeks is during the last week it is giving her time to fatten up and gain back her strength before putting her back into the main tank.  With the rainbows, she will defend the fry, to keep them from eating them. It would be best if you can get a 10 gal to set up temp doing daily small water changes, then as soon as you get the fry to 3/4 of an inch you can put them into the main tank.

[faithwalker]

I will try and catch her tonite.

Think I will take the rest of the Labs back and then just keep the Calvus, Peacock, and Brichardi. They don't seem to mind each other.

Live and learn 

[fishdude401]

It's not that you can't take care of fish, its that you ended up with the wrong male:female ration, it should be 1male:3females with african cichlids.

So start sexing all of the fish and return the excess males, than just get lots of females. Also its recommended to have dither fish like Giant danios to spread aggression.

[MySpace Mike]

Dither fish will only get killed by the African Cichlids, they can't handle the aggression levels African Cichlids dish out, I would instead add in a couple more yellow labs to the mix. Possibly add in a Red Zebra or a pseudotropheus species to the tank, this will for sure cure their aggression as Red Zebras and pseudotropheus species are more aggressive. Be sure to watch over your Brichardi as they tend to be really docile and can't handle heavily aggressive species that continuously harass them. Or you can go with an all Peacock tank.

Also by the African Cichlids killing any dither fish they will also eat the dead corpse, which will add protein into their diet which they shouldn't have, as they need a minor protein supply in their diet and a high veggie matter in their diet. Unlike S/A and C/A Cichlids African cichlids are mostly herbivorous and eat plant matter, so a nice zuchini spear (like a pickle spear but zuchini you cut) rubberbanded to a rock or something so it sinks, the African cichlids will go nuts over it. Also Romain Lettuce as well, they love both.

[faithwalker]

Thank you Mike. I now have this tank as a Tanganyika set-up. Brichardi, Calvus, Regani pair, and a Frontosa. They all get along pretty well now.

[MySpace Mike]

Awesome glad you decided on a certain lake species tank, it will really help you out in the future as the fish live together in the wild.

[kazvorpal]

Dither fish will only get killed by the African Cichlids, they can't handle the aggression levels African Cichlids dish out

I have to strongly disagree with this statement.

Africans aren't all that aggressive, if the tank is adequately populated. I keep mine with danios, bala sharks, silver dollars, et cetera, along with some South Americans. The trick is to have enough in the tank.

Rearranging the tank also helps cut down on territorial behavior.

I should stipulate that I have avoided having multiple Africans of the same breed. I do have mated South Americans, for example a Convict who's mated with a half Convict, half Red Devil, and a purebred Red Devil who is courting a half Convict, half Flowerhorn, and each pair has staked out a small section of the 55g tank as their "house". I provided conditions that allowed them to pick a spot that did not extend too far...for example, the former pair has a submerged fishbowl they consider home.

The only real aggression problems I've had with the entire tank were the Pacu (as expected), and the Spotted Puffer (who had to be moved from the saltwater tank to my brackish Cichlid tank, when he started eating my crabs). The Pacu only ate fish that fit in his mouth, didn't bother anyone else, but was given to the Fin Inn for their gigantic display tank, as I'd intended when buying him (my kid loves Pacu). The Puffer was eating everyone's fins, even the huge Severum and Red Devil, until he adjusted to cichlid food, but then stopped.

[faithwalker]

To each their own....I have seen stockings work with friends that are disaster for me. Cichilds have their own personality and that is what we have to work with, individually !

[kazvorpal]

To each their own....I have seen stockings work with friends that are disaster for me. Cichilds have their own personality and that is what we have to work with, individually !

While fish "personality" matters, I think there are usually other factors that are being missed.

For example, people who are convinced that a Red Devil or Oscar can't live with any other species probably had those fish in an underpopulated tank or, worse, allowed it to have the tank to itself for a while, then tried to add other fish to its territory.

The trick is to add the oscar, red devil, et cetera last, and as a baby. Start with the least aggressive fish and populate the tank in reverse order.

[faithwalker]

Much agreed !

[fishaholicgirl]

I have a great african setup..(great in my mind that is LOL) and the key is to overstock...with africans..overstocking is best as they are too busy with everyone than to pick out one or two they seem to bully....they are best kept in a species only type of tank...much because of aggression, but also because water parimeters and food requirements are much different....I do have a tank of mixed lakes, which they dont recommend ...but I didnt stock this tank (I finally let the boyfriend have one of his own hahah) and I seem to come home from work with a different set of fish daily.....but its been growing strong for a few years.....I wouldnt put other types of cichlids, as they cant always handle the higher ph, or the diet recommenced for africans...although they may exist in a tank, surviving isnt thriving in most cases...id NEVER put danios or balas or anything in that nature in an african setup...thats just mean in my opinion...I try my best to keep the fish as happy as they can be, because I choose to take them out of their usual habitats and keep them in mine.....although anyone can throw a bunch of different fish in a tank, even knowing they need different requirements, doesnt make it right for the fish .....in a 56g tank, (although im not sure what a column tank is?) you could have 15 or so fish...if you decided to stick with certain lake species, definitely have 1m-3-4f ratio...dont give up...africans are the most crazy , fun fish ive ever owned

[faithwalker]

Thank you fishaholic girl. The tank is tall and deep. It is only 36" wide, 24" tall, and 18" deep (I think) therefore I have kind of treated is more like a 29 and why I went with Tanganyikans. Not sure what I will do with the Frontosa once he gets bigger. I have grown quite attached to him.

[fishaholicgirl]

oh ok!! I guess thats what column means? I always learn something new daily!!
and yes with africans, the horizontal space is better....im dieing to get some frontosa's someday...they are magnificent fish!! do you have some pics of yours?

[faithwalker]

I hate the column tank and want to tear it down. I am thinking of trying to move the Frontosa to my 55 long with a Blue Acara I picked up yesterday. Just not sure how they will get along. They are both about the same size right now, but the Acara will grow much faster. If that worked, I could move the Tangs to an empty 29 I have and get rid of the ugly column tank.



I put him as my avatar, but it is blurry ! He is a very nice fish, personable and not mean at all.

[fishaholicgirl]

wow he is just stunning!!!!!!!!! Im hoping to have room this spring for some...but gotta get rid of some fry now....whats in with him now? if you add the acara and front at the same time, or add the most submissive one first and then the other a few days later, in a 55g with hiding spots, it should be ok...
I adore the taller tanks...but I have a bunch of angels LOL ...im getting ready to set up a 30g xtall hex...

[faithwalker]

The column would be perfect for Angels. They have the same one at the store live planted with tons of Guppies and it is gorgeous !

The Frontosa is with the Reganis, Black Calvus, and Brichardi. He just seems really happy in there right now, so I keep putting it off.

I'm tempted to try a JD with the Acara, but wonder if he will get too big, or maybe a Firemouth. I'm not good at making my mind up on things ! My ideas change daily....haha.

[fishaholicgirl]

The column would be perfect for Angels. They have the same one at the store live planted with tons of Guppies and it is gorgeous !

The Frontosa is with the Reganis, Black Calvus, and Brichardi. He just seems really happy in there right now, so I keep putting it off.

I'm tempted to try a JD with the Acara, but wonder if he will get too big, or maybe a Firemouth. I'm not good at making my mind up on things ! My ideas change daily....haha.

well, if you are still looking come spring, and god willing im still alive hahah, ill gladly share my fish! Ive never had acara..but ive got some friends with  some..and they have raised my jd's with them..and I so hear you about changing things daily...we are women and its our prerogative right?

[kazvorpal]

I have a great african setup..(great in my mind that is LOL) and the key is to overstock...with africans..overstocking is best as they are too busy with everyone than to pick out one or two they seem to bully....

Agreed.

they are best kept in a species only type of tank...much because of aggression, but also because water parimeters and food requirements are much different....I do have a tank of mixed lakes, which they dont recommend ...but I didnt stock this tank (I finally let the boyfriend have one of his own hahah) and I seem to come home from work with a different set of fish daily.....but its been growing strong for a few years.....I wouldnt put other types of cichlids, as they cant always handle the higher ph, or the diet recommenced for africans...although they may exist in a tank, surviving isnt thriving in most cases...

It is actually possible to split the pH difference between New World and African cichlids, as the new worlders are much more flexible on their pH in the first place. And mine certainly do seem to be thriving. They're quite animated, growing rapidly, et cetera.

id NEVER put danios or balas or anything in that nature in an african setup...thats just mean in my opinion...

But on what are you basing it? Have you ever tried?

Giant danios integrate perfectly with cichlids, who evolved to live in waters with fish just like danios.

And note that bala sharks get huge. They are a perfect for the cichlids who get so large they might eat other community fish. So, if you have a plan for when they get even bigger, are pacu. Other examples would include tinfoil barbs and clown loaches. These are four examples of community or semi-aggressives that get along fine even with oscars and red devils, if done right. An oscar might, eventually, happen to swallow one's giant danios.

I try my best to keep the fish as happy as they can be, because I choose to take them out of their usual habitats and keep them in mine.....

Technically, that is not what you did. You rescued them from a bizarre and ultimately destructive habitat; the fish store, and put them in one where, presumably, they are actually better-off. If anything, THEY owe YOU for that favor.

That said, I definitely try to keep my fish happy. But I explore and determine what does that, rather than taking advice I receive as fact. I do this in life in general, but especially in aquaria, because the hobby has a history of harmful nonsense being conventional wisdom, routinely.

although anyone can throw a bunch of different fish in a tank, even knowing they need different requirements, doesnt make it right for the fish .....in a 56g tank, (although im not sure what a column tank is?) you could have 15 or so fish...if you decided to stick with certain lake species, definitely have 1m-3-4f ratio...dont give up...africans are the most crazy , fun fish ive ever owned

A column tank is a tall one, which actually reduces the number of fish the amount of water can support, because that depends largely on surface area exposed to air.

Personally, I find new world cichlids more fun, although Africans more visually pleasing.

One important thing to consider is that many kinds of fish integrate well because they don't inhabit the same ecological niche in a tank.

For example, mbuna hang around fixtures near the bottom, while utaka are open-water fish, preferring mid-tank. You can increase the number of fish who "get along" simply by ensuring that you have some of each. Likewise, danios and some other community fish are surface-dwellers, whom the mbuna will barely be aware of for most of the day. Likewise many bottom-feeders can fit in nicely, although another fish of the same temperament might get in the way and get picked on, as it would intrude more often.

"Different requirements" actually integrate very well in a large tank.

People get too fixated on a few simple metrics, and forget such things. Danios adapt to a very wide range of pH, salinity, et cetera.

[fishaholicgirl]

It is actually possible to split the pH difference between New World and African cichlids, as the new worlders are much more flexible on their pH in the first place. And mine certainly do seem to be thriving. They're quite animated, growing rapidly, et cetera.Agreed to some extent...I do have convicts in with my africans...only because they can handle the ph differences and can go with allot of veggies as well as meat (which my africans dont get allot of )

But on what are you basing it? Have you ever tried?

Giant danios integrate perfectly with cichlids, who evolved to live in waters with fish just like danios.

And note that bala sharks get huge. They are a perfect for the cichlids who get so large they might eat other community fish. So, if you have a plan for when they get even bigger, are pacu. Other examples would include tinfoil barbs and clown loaches. These are four examples of community or semi-aggressives that get along fine even with oscars and red devils, if done right. An oscar might, eventually, happen to swallow one's giant danios.
I have balas and regular danios...cant answer on the giant danio part but having balas for over 10 years, id NEVER put them in with my africans...they would tear them up..in my opinion, they are gentle giants ...although hes been with oscars and jd's in much larger tanks and does fine...balas do get very large I agree, but agressive in nature is not their style..at least none of mine...


Technically, that is not what you did. You rescued them from a bizarre and ultimately destructive habitat; the fish store, and put them in one where, presumably, they are actually better-off. If anything, THEY owe YOU for that favor.

That said, I definitely try to keep my fish happy. But I explore and determine what does that, rather than taking advice I receive as fact. I do this in life in general, but especially in aquaria, because the hobby has a history of harmful nonsense being conventional wisdom, routinely.none of my africans are rescues..all are from a reputable breeder and I still try to keep them happy and healthy with the requirements they prefer...I do my exploring before I get them..although I do agree aquaria is a good hobby to try things and learn daily.

A column tank is a tall one, which actually reduces the number of fish the amount of water can support, because that depends largely on surface area exposed to air.faith answered that in the post above as I recommended more of a horizontal space for africans than vertical  

[kazvorpal]

It is actually possible to split the pH difference between New World and African cichlids, as the new worlders are much more flexible on their pH in the first place. And mine certainly do seem to be thriving. They're quite animated, growing rapidly, et cetera.Agreed to some extent...I do have convicts in with my africans...only because they can handle the ph differences and can go with allot of veggies as well as meat (which my africans dont get allot of )

But on what are you basing it? Have you ever tried?

But...doesn't my tagline show the list of Africans/New Worlders I have together in a tank?

I have balas and regular danios...cant answer on the giant danio part but having balas for over 10 years, id NEVER put them in with my africans...they would tear them up..in my opinion, they are gentle giants ...although hes been with oscars and jd's in much larger tanks and does fine...balas do get very large I agree, but agressive in nature is not their style..at least none of mine...

They don't need to be aggressive. Africans are not univerally aggressive. For example, they are more aggressive in single-species groups, whereas I have only one of each species in my tank. In that circumstance, they border on harmless. If anything, my new worlders are more aggressive, if only because four of them are two mated pairs.

none of my africans are rescues..all are from a reputable breeder and I still try to keep them happy and healthy with the requirements they prefer...I do my exploring before I get them..although I do agree aquaria is a good hobby to try things and learn daily.

I am under the impression that even breeders aren't necessarily going to keep their fish in as nice a habitat as a good home tank. They're still in creche-like conditions. Certainly anyone who buys a fish from an LFS is rescuing the fish from the barren, minimally tolerable tank situation of the store, to a nicer one at home.

faith answered that in the post above as I recommended more of a horizontal space for africans than vertical 

The one reason I'd like a column tank is that you could really exploit the different realms in which, say, Malawi cichlids live. Utaka in the open water, mbuna in the rocks, minnow-like fish at the top, bottom-feeders at the, well, bottom.

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